La Germania è troppo arrogante con i suoi partner?

1 febbraio 2012

Presseurop

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Victor Hugo 457 | 01.02.2012 | 20:29 | Commento tradotto

@Presseurop: Sorry to say that, but this is an absolutely biased question! You already did that before and asked if people fear that Germany will become too powerful. I really lose my pleasure to take part in presseurop when you go on like that! Do you want to inflame tensions inside Europe with questions like that? This is no more objective. You wouldn't do that with other countries! In the question about Hungary you just talked about Orbans "reforms" and nothing about arrogance, etc. I tell you what: Europe won't work like that. The Germans won't accept to be treated like that. You can be critical with German policy, but not like that. With such questions you can hire in the media empire of Rupert Murdoch, but this has nothing to do with European integration!

Volete attizzare la tensione con domande del genere? Questo non è obiettivo: non l'avreste fatto con un altro paese. L'Europa non andrà lontano così.
Presseurop
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Victor Hugo 457 | 01.02.2012 | 20:44

P.S.: You could maybe ask "Do you think Merkels behaviour is arrogant?", but with using the word Germany you do the same as if you would ask "Do you think Greece is too corrupt?" instead of talking about the Greek government. That's a big difference and such questions divide the people in Europe!
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Victor Hugo 457 | 01.02.2012 | 22:59

European History Part 1: This financial crises leads to unexpected tensions between the countries in Europe. I think now we can imagine much better than a few years before the pressure which lead many European countries into protectionism and Fascism in the 1930s. The worst developments of all countries took Germany, which voted for the most radical variant of facism, the National Socialism. A few years later there followed the war. Hitlers Germany was the aggressor in this war, which costed the lives of more than 50 million people. When Hitler saw that he will loose the war his fanatic hate on Jews also lead him to the absolutely atrocious decision to kill millions of innocent people in the holocaust. He was not alone and had many supporters who helped him to realise his atrocious plans.
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Victor Hugo 457 | 01.02.2012 | 23:06

European History Part 2: In the last sixty years one of Germany's main aims has always been to regain the trust of the world and especially the neighbour countries. Thus Germany became a main booster of the European integration. When you consider the totally destroyed Europe of 1945 the EU must be seen as a big success story.

Obviously today many Germans do not like to talk too much about the past and would prefer to tick of this chapter in history. But it won't work! Mankind has an excellent memory. We still remember Napoleon, Julius Caesar and even the Pharaos, which lived many thousands years ago. This means that all Germans have to get clear about the fact that Hitler and his crimes will always be a part in the memory of mankind. In crises like that (when tensions are growing) the distrust against Germany becomes obvious.
Presseurop
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Victor Hugo 457 | 01.02.2012 | 23:25

European Future: Today Germany's economic power forces the country to take a leading position in Europe again. But the problem is that it is not really able and does not really want to lead, because of the historical mistrust against the country. So what to do? The first possibility would be to disintegrate the European Union again. The voices in favor for disintegration are rapidly increasing since the beginning of the financial crises. In my opinion this would lead to similar developments like in the 1930s. Not necessarily a war, but at least protectionism and further economic decline of Europe. The other possibility is to give the lead in Europe to the European Commission. But to create a democratic legitimation for such a step further integration would be necessary! I do not really see any other options (maybe someone else?) that's why I personally I would absolutely prefer the option of further integration!
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NunoD 491 | 02.02.2012 | 01:19

Victor Hugo, although I don't agree with you when you call for further integration (I think that's exactly our problem, we went too far too early with the monetary union), I have to tell you that the vast majority of the Portuguese people understand almost all the things you've said about your country (I suppose you're German) and we're aware of the efforts these bailouts represent to the common German citizen. Sometimes we're just a bit shocked with some things Frau Merkel and other German politicians say about us and our country, especially when they are unfair, although Portugal is not usually their focus. In fact, this is a silly question, since Germany is a democratic and diverse society. We're talking about politicians, not the common German. And I agree with you, we're living dangerous times. I must confess I'm a bit worried, because I fear the bonds of trust among our nations we're already broken. How can we have a union without trust?
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Tricky 293 | 02.02.2012 | 14:49

NunoD@ "Sometimes we're just a bit shocked with some things Frau Merkel and other German politicians say about us and our country". Do you have any examples of shocking things Frau Merkel has said about us and our country? I have followed the euro crisis for some time now and in public at least Angela Merkel is one of the few politicians who has conducted herself with dignity & integrity. This is in stark contrast to the French political elite who have no qualms in resorting to schoolboy playground talk in public. The question in my view should be rephrased as follows. Is France arrogant towards it's EU partners?
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mattgeffen 24 | 02.02.2012 | 17:24

Leading question, designed to spread discord??

No, I do not think Germany is behaving arrogantly. I fully understand and sympathise with German preoccupations about southern Europe.

The shock will come when the Germans start to ask similar questions of the genuinely arrogant country in the EZ: France.
Presseurop
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aditec 1565 | 02.02.2012 | 22:06

Lieber Victor! Ich bin voll mit deinem Kommentar Teil 1 einverstanden. Ich habe inzwischen den Eindruck, dass es den Verantwortlichen von presseurop nicht um europäische Verständigung, sondern um europäische Krawalle geht. Die Auswahl der Presseveröffentlichungen und die diversen Fragestellungen polarisieren die europäischen Bürger. Sie fördern eine antideutsche Haltung. Seit dem ich presseurop kenne, hat sich meine Einstellung zur europäischen Einigung deutlich geändert. Im Gegensatz zu dir plädiere ich für eine Spaltung der Eurozone und Neuorganisation der EU in Richtung eines losen Wirtschaftsbundes. Ich fühle mich mit nur wenigen Europäern hier im Forum verbunden.
Presseurop
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aditec 1565 | 02.02.2012 | 22:18

Liebe Freunde! Ich möchte nicht den Job der Bundeskanzlerin Merkel übernehmen. Innen- und außenpolitisch ist sie unterschiedlichen Interessen und mächtigem Druck ausgesetzt. Ich bewundere ihre ruhige und feste Haltung in diesem europäischen Chaos. Es mag sein, dass sie in dieser Krise nicht immer angemessene Worte gefunden hat. Aber ihr vorzuwerfen, ihr Auftreten sei arrogant, ist eine böswillige Unterstellung. Da gibt es andere europäische Beispiele. Es ist doch verständlich, dass sie nicht Forderungen ausländischer Politiker nachkommen kann, die die finanzielle Existenz Deutschlands bedrohen. Deutschland trägt bereits 1 Billion Euro Risiko. Das sind doch keine Peanuts.
Presseurop
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aditec 1565 | 02.02.2012 | 22:33

Amigo Nuno! Die Bindungen zwischen den europäischen Bürgern sind bereits beschädigt – nachhaltig beschädigt. Die Krise hat uns nicht zusammengeschweißt, sondern auseinander gebracht. Und das Ende ist noch nicht abzusehen. Die Entwicklung kann durchaus noch dramatischere Formen annehmen. All die gemeinsamen Jahre in der Union haben es nicht geschafft, alte Aversionen zu überwinden. Längst überwundene Ressentiments und Feindseligkeiten wurden manifest. Wie Untote steigen sie aus ihrer Gruft. Die emotionale Basis für eine enge europäische Gemeinschaft ist zu schmal. Die Krise hat offenbart, dass wir nicht zusammengehören. Vor der Krise hätte ich mir eine Reise nach Griechenland oder Portugal noch freudig vorstellen können. Heute würde ich diese Länder eher meiden.
Presseurop
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JoseRuiz 475 | 03.02.2012 | 01:50

The truth is that I had not paid attention to this question because it is typical to mount the mess, while Presseurop goes home for weekend. I came to read the comments which I thought they would be funny, so I've gone with a smile on my face to read the comments about Presseurop's provocation. My smile is gone when I saw the length of the Victor Hugo's response. When I read his comment full of righteous indignation and I have seen his disgust, I felt guilty about my smile.

Victor Hugo did not get upset and especially do not leave this forum and let us without your comments, always judicious, moderate and focused. I regret his disgust and want you to know that I agree with your ideas, so I have not found occasion to discuss with you (how to do it when you are in such agreement). I also have hope for European integration because beyond economic issues, to Spain, the EU membership has given a goal, a model and hope when we came from a long dictatorship and civil war.
Presseurop
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JoseRuiz 475 | 03.02.2012 | 01:54

NunoD I share your concern about erosion taking place in relations between countries. Families need to know to discuss, so that members can return to the reconciliation when the crisis has passed. The press in general does not help.

Tricky & Mattgeffen, the smile have returned to my face with your proposal to change the question.

Aditec, my apologies to you. I confess that I have come to read your comments on the provocative question. About Angela Merkel:

“Ich möchte nicht den Job der Bundeskanzlerin Merkel übernehmen. Innen- und außenpolitisch ist sie unterschiedlichen Interessen und mächtigem Druck ausgesetzt. Ich bewundere ihre ruhige und feste Haltung in diesem europäischen Chaos.”

Absolutely agree. I still remember her on the steps to greet Berlusconi, as he talked on his cellular phone making her wait for it. Merkel is me, and Berlusconi swallows his cellular.
Presseurop
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NunoD 491 | 03.02.2012 | 06:03

Aditec, lamento que queira evitar viajar para Portugal, pois seria de certeza bem recebido, como qualquer outro cidadão alemão ou europeu. Parece-me que não está a fazer um julgamento correcto do povo português, como o poderão comprovar vários compatriotas seus, alguns dos quais eu conheço pessoalmente. Ou então o google translator fez uma tradução incorrecta do alemão para português, mais uma vez...
Presseurop
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Victor Hugo 457 | 03.02.2012 | 14:26

@Jose Ruiz: Thanks for your kind words, but I have to say that I am surely not always judicious and I only express a certain opinion which is more or less fact based like everybody else in this forum.

In the case of this question I got a bit angry, because I don't think it's helpfull to ask such questions about whole nations and their behaviour. Instead we should ask questions about certain persons or ideas. If you blame whole nations you will even often reach a solidarisation of the opposition inside this country with the government. This does not only count for Germany but generally.
Presseurop
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Victor Hugo 457 | 03.02.2012 | 14:48

@Tricky and NunoD: Yes, I would also be interested in the unfair comments of Ms Merkel against Portugal. I remember that she once mentioned on a party congress that certain countries have less working hours than Germany, which was indeed not really true. And therefore she got a lot of censure (also in the German press). But apart from that my impression is that she is very careful in what she says about other countries.
Presseurop
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@Uutisvahti 3 | 03.02.2012 | 18:18

I voted no. Just so you know. This is the time, when there is no more economical growth to be generated with more debt.

It is important that those countries that still have credit, stay strong and others just need to weather the situation over.
Presseurop
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NunoD 491 | 03.02.2012 | 18:34

Victor Hugo, I'm sorry if I haven't made myself clear. I've refered "Frau Merkel and other German politicians", not specifically Frau Merkel (I was thinking about that episode and when she critised the Portuguese retirement age, which was reformed some years ago and is actually close to the German one). Maybe I did not choose the right words. I've critised the German politicians in general (and I could talk about some German press too), but I'm aware most of the time these are general opinions about Southern European countries (not Portugal specifically), and most of them are translated to the Portuguese press in a wrong way, creating misunderstandings very often. I didn't intend to make Frau Merkel a scapegoat, personally I respect her and I don't think she is worse than all the other European politicians.
Presseurop
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Observer 313 | 03.02.2012 | 18:46

Let's reword this.

A) Do you think Southern Europe abused of EU funds for 30 years without developing anything but essentially stealing money and increasing public debts?

I think YES. B) Do i think Germany is arrogant? Maybe, but more than arrogant, i said it already, Merkel is cynically trying to strike a balance between internal public opinion and keeping her seat, while saving the Euro (And Germany). In doing this she is widely abusing of her national powers making them supranational and screwing other countries to save hers. No one asked her. She's self-entitled, essentially and this is irritating people, and will leave deep scars.
Presseurop
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Ely 195 | 03.02.2012 | 18:48

Dear Victor I can understand your feelings. But I thing that this provocative question was exactly that. Provocative!! That means make us think every time that we express ourselfs how arrogant we are with the others.

I am Greek and I can tell you I saw a lot of provocative and racist comments about my country from people I think they didn't even know what they were telling.

How do you think I feel, do you care? I see people expressing themshefs against Greece based only of what their TV is telling
Presseurop
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Ely 195 | 03.02.2012 | 18:49

Dear Victor how do you think I felt when Bild was attacking our culture, wich I think even if they are a shame of the press, gave them the possibility to express their thinking?

How do you think I feel when you call me a PIGS? Wich is an animal I think? THINK. But even thought I will still be a REAL DEMOCRATIC and I will try to go ahead and see the real question bnot the superiority of a race or an economical system but of the real culture and that is something that presseeurope is not bothering to discuss.
Presseurop
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Nebehr 279 | 03.02.2012 | 19:00

P.S.: You could maybe ask "Do you think Merkels behaviour is arrogant?", but with using the word Germany you do the same as if you would ask "Do you think Greece is too corrupt?" instead of talking about the Greek government. That's a big difference and such questions divide the people in Europe!

I agree with this message. I'd also like that Presseurop will show more German articles which demonstrate that Merkel is criticized inside her own country as well as outside. If the other countries can't read such articles, they will naturally think that each German recognizes him/herself in what she does.
Presseurop
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aditec 1565 | 03.02.2012 | 22:09

Amigo Nuno! Ich habe bereits zweimal Portugal bereist. Es hat mir jedes Mal dort gut gefallen. Ich empfehle nicht, dass Deutsche Portugal als Reiseland boykottieren sollen. Ich habe nur meine persönliche Empfindung zum Ausdruck gebracht. Ich würde mich in einem Land unwohl fühlen, dessen Bewohner große Ressentiments gegen Deutsche haben. Deshalb würde ich eine Reise dorthin meiden.
Presseurop
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NunoD 491 | 04.02.2012 | 01:06

Amigo Aditec, let me make this very clear: there is no "große Ressentiments gegen Deutsche haben" in Portugal. This is a fact. Visit us and bring all your family and friends. Despite the crisis, Portugal is more beautiful than ever, especially now in those sunny winter days. I can assure you our German friends will always be welcome here. Come on aditec, we're a peaceful people! We have no resentments towards any other country. And we need tourists to recover and pay our debts!
Presseurop
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Observer 313 | 04.02.2012 | 04:55

@Victor Hugo,

I may sympathize with your views and share your feelings. But remember that all what Presseurop does is translating articles. Now, what i think (I only think) is that since almost all EU press is basically complaining about Germany (To please public opinion and sell), what Presseurop finds on papers is this trend, with a generalized set of complaints from most countries that feel abused by Germany. Would i feel the same as you should my country be targeted like this? YES EXACTLY LIKE YOU in the end. Go look how many insulting articles on Italy and other countries there are around. I type "Bunga Bunga" in presseurop and get 3 articles. I may type Italy and may get x 10. Should i blame Presseurop for the faults of my country?
Presseurop
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Lx21 333 | 04.02.2012 | 05:02

@NunoD: "Heróis do mar, nobre povo". Nós só pecisamos de nós próprios. Nao precisamos de favores de ninguém. Não é preciso fazer como o nosso Primeiro-ministro e implorar que nos ajudem porque não somos nenhuns mortos de fome. Temos um belíssimo país com uma extraordinária cultura e uma história que nos honra. Só precisamos de nós próprios e de quem se sinta bem connosco. Um abraço.
Presseurop
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TH66 196 | 04.02.2012 | 12:44

Wenn ein Land führen will oder muss, wird es immer arrogant auf die anderen wirken. Anderst funktioniert es nicht.

Das führende Land ist so lange beliebt, wie es keine unangenehmen Forderungen stellt. Stellt es keine Forderungen, wird es versagen. Und dann geringgeschätzt.

Es ist schon eine undankbare Aufgabe.
Presseurop
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NunoD 491 | 04.02.2012 | 15:46

@Lx21, todos os países precisam uns dos outros. Até a grande Alemanha. É certo que temos um belíssimo país, e somos também um povo tolerante e civilizado. Por esse mesmo motivo é que eu estou a tentar demonstrar aos nossos amigos alemães que não somos nem ressabiados como os gregos, nem palermas subservientes como o nosso primeiro-ministro. Abraço
Presseurop
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adraluc 9 | 05.02.2012 | 01:24

Am răspuns nu. Din păcate pentru a impune măsuri neplăcute, un ton dur este cel mai eficace. Şi pentru moment Germania împinge Europa în direcţia bună. Regret că IMHO politicienii naţionali o să prefere toţi măsuri chinuitoare pentru popor în loc să înceapă cu cheltuielile lor-înşişi. Cum va fi posibil să fie înlăturaţi toţi aceşti paraziţi pentru a da puterea Europei?

Altfel întrebarea trebuie să fie subiectivă, fiind vorba despre o percepţie.
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aditec 1565 | 05.02.2012 | 15:20

@Lx21. É preciso não deitar fora o bebé com a água do banho. Niemand spricht Portugal seine guten Momente in Geschichte ab. Auch hat niemand behauptet, Portugal sei kein schönes Land. Ich wäre nicht ein zweites Mal nach Portugal gereist, wenn Land und Leute mir nicht gefallen hätten. Ich war auch kein Pauschaltourist, sondern bin individuell gereist. Vorher habe ich mich eingehend über Geschichte, Kultur, Wirtschaft, Geografie Portugals informiert. Die Krux an der ganzen Diskussion der Eurokrise ist, dass sie grenzenlos ausufert. Es geht nicht mehr um Ursachenforschung und geeignete Lösungswege, es geht jetzt um Wert und Unwert der einzelnen europäischen Völker. Das ist destruktiv und wird verheerende nachhaltige Wirkungen erzeugen. Es wird uns Schritt für Schritt spalten.
Presseurop
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aditec 1565 | 08.02.2012 | 12:14

Liebe europäische Freunde! Wenn die Abstimmungsergebnisse repräsentativ sind, dann sollten sich die Deutschen gründlich überlegen, ob für sie die politische Einheit Europas ein lohnenswertes Ziel ist. In einer Gemeinschaft mit anderen Völkern zu leben, in der man nicht willkommen ist, ist kein wünschenswerter Zustand. Dann lieber einen losen europäischen Binnenmarkt im Sinne Britanniens.

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La Germania è troppo arrogante con i suoi partner?